I don't know why you're so against wind turbines? How would the fen's have been drained, how would flour be milled if narrow minded people like you exsisted when windmills all those years ago were built?

The Fen's are monotonous boring and flat, and the wind turbines are a nice break in the scenery.

Take it from a Scottish visitor, looking out on miles of farmland with no breaks and no hedgerows, this will add to the Fens.

Well Scottish visitor ,you should know more than most that Scotland has been littered with turbines and some of the most stunning highlands, unspoilt now industrialised.

But then you obviously dont care about where you are, because Baumber is not in the Fens we are right on the Lincolnshire Wolds in rolling open countryside not at all flat & boring.. You really ought to maybe spend your time in a waste collection yard..there are a couple down in Horncastle, they do a useful job in recycling & therefore helping global warming, but i suppose with your level of apprecation of the landscape you might find they are apealing... sic

Yes, I know the area quite well. So why don't you go and rip down Belmont transmitter too? (I grew up 40 miles to the south of there). No bet you don't want that as it provides Lincs FM, TV and BBC Radio?

Honestly you people make me sick, you want all the comforts of the modern world, but you aren't prepared to have the means to generate the power?

And the hills aren't littered with turbines up here, there's a few scattered around. Barely noticeable!

I am quite happy to have a windfarm on the hill overlooking my house, and I'd be proud to support it to show the world we're trying to do our bit.

When Russia shuts off the gas and we have power cuts, come back and tell me whether you want a windfarm or not?

Here's a question for you - Have you actually asked *ALL* the residents in the catchment area whether they support, don't support, or don't have an opinion on windfarms? Our local community council wasted no end of local money objecting to our windfarms, when in fact over 70% of the residents did not object to them!

hello pete well is 16 mega watts gonna supply the whole country ohh i dont think so.. please go and be sick back up in Scotland and leave us here to worry about the future like coping with 8,000 tons of concrete coming in to be dumped in the ground & 8,000 tons of spoil going the other way....8 gigantic useless bits of junk on our doorsteps .. followed by loads more as enertrag crams some more in and BUILDS ITs ACCESS road down Mere balk lane so WARD can make room for at least 4 or 5 more ... then tells us its for our own good while it is shoveled loads of money from the subsidies we pay for... like a big fat pig with its nose in the trough.. snort snort yummy yummy

If you know the area then you must be thick ..... Baumber is not in the FENS get lost in ur sick bag

hello pete well is 16 mega watts gonna supply the whole country ohh i dont think so.. please go and be sick back up in Scotland and leave us here to worry about the future like coping with 8,000 tons of concrete coming in to be dumped in the ground & 8,000 tons of spoil going the other way....8 gigantic useless bits of junk on our doorsteps .. followed by loads more as enertrag crams some more in and BUILDS ITs ACCESS road down Mere balk lane so WARD can make room for at least 4 or 5 more ... then tells us its for our own good while it is shoveled loads of money from the subsidies we pay for... like a big fat pig with its nose in the trough.. snort snort yummy yummy

If you know the area then you must be thick ..... Baumber is not in the FENS get lost in ur sick bag

--- a BWAG fan well done BWAG(guest) 

At last ! somebody saying how they actually feel and not mamby pambying around with all the politeness, good thing this web site its actually stirring up the apathy from the people who have had enough with this governments so called green policies, well done BWAG fan.

I think, myself, its a very Bold Scotsman, That would tell English Fenlanders that their scenery is 'boring', Scottish visitor. As a professional Artist, I think you are somewhat lacking in aesthetic tastes, also? You presumably see Industrial Wind power stations (they are hardly 'Farms' are they?) as serving the purpose of some sort of 'Moving Sculpture display' adding some entertainment to our lives, that you think must be lacking? And all payed for, by increased Electricity costs, in order to pay the Stealth subsidies, without which, they would not be built? Its perhaps a little unfortunate that so much of this money will be going to Scottish Power, for their part in building Wind Turbines. As far as the use of windmills in the past, is concerned, there use, I feel, has been far more appropriate to the requirements, and technical abilities of the time, than the current usage, and proposals. And, therefore, met with far less obstrution.

Yes, I know the area quite well. So why don't you go and rip down Belmont transmitter too? (I grew up 40 miles to the south of there). No bet you don't want that as it provides Lincs FM, TV and BBC Radio?

Honestly you people make me sick, you want all the comforts of the modern world, but you aren't prepared to have the means to generate the power?

And the hills aren't littered with turbines up here, there's a few scattered around. Barely noticeable!

I am quite happy to have a windfarm on the hill overlooking my house, and I'd be proud to support it to show the world we're trying to do our bit.

When Russia shuts off the gas and we have power cuts, come back and tell me whether you want a windfarm or not?

Here's a question for you - Have you actually asked *ALL* the residents in the catchment area whether they support, don't support, or don't have an opinion on windfarms? Our local community council wasted no end of local money objecting to our windfarms, when in fact over 70% of the residents did not object to them!

--- Pete(guest) 

Um. They won't be able to get on a computer without electricity, would they? Well at least that's one annoyance down!

I love how everyone has sidestepped the 'asking the community' comment. That's what you need to do BWAG. Send questionnaires, preferably more than one so the children can have their view, as it's their future that will be 'affected' after all.

I agree with Danny that it is a "good thing this web site its actually stirring up the apathy from the people who have had enough with this governments so called green policies" ... but its not a good thing to be rude and insulting to one another! I presume that the vast majority of the people using this site - myself included - love and value the Lincolnshire countryside, and it's not at all helpful to say that our countryside is flat and boring. It also misses the point: we know that we need to adapt to life without fossil fuels. If not wind turbines, how?

I have lived close to wind turbines before, and in my personal opinion, they are quiet, unobtrusive, effective, safe power generators.

Our decisions about energy are not just about Lincolnshire, though. We value our own homes; so do the people of Bangladesh, Indonesia and Greenland who will experience the impacts of climate change before the Lincolnshire wolds.

It is my personal opinion that we should cherish our beautiful countryside, and do everything in our power to make sure it is there for our children. I can live with wind turbines - there's way too much at stake.

I agree with Danny that it is a "good thing this web site its actually stirring up the apathy from the people who have had enough with this governments so called green policies" ... but its not a good thing to be rude and insulting to one another! I presume that the vast majority of the people using this site - myself included - love and value the Lincolnshire countryside, and it's not at all helpful to say that our countryside is flat and boring. It also misses the point: we know that we need to adapt to life without fossil fuels. If not wind turbines, how?

I have lived close to wind turbines before, and in my personal opinion, they are quiet, unobtrusive, effective, safe power generators.

Our decisions about energy are not just about Lincolnshire, though. We value our own homes; so do the people of Bangladesh, Indonesia and Greenland who will experience the impacts of climate change before the Lincolnshire wolds.

It is my personal opinion that we should cherish our beautiful countryside, and do everything in our power to make sure it is there for our children. I can live with wind turbines - there's way too much at stake.

--- Laura(guest) 

Laura, in your comments you say the turbines are effective? could you explain to me and no doubt many others excactly how effective they are. Also spare a thought to all the villages in India that have to put up with all our nicely seperated and soughted recycled rubbish that you and me do because we think 'we are doing our bit,' which ends up in their landfills. (Panorama Mon 8th Sept). We can not trust these re newable policies, You are naive, and can not contemplate the obscene ammount of money the land owner and turbine supplier will make from on shore wind farms on the back of the general public. If they where serious about, in this case, wind energy, there should be no profiteering.

Hello Local

Modern turbines are effective in that they procuce lots of clean energy, pay back their carbon cost in a matter of months, have a life span of around 25 years, and in that time are found to be reliable and need little maintainance.

I share your concens about where our rubbish / recycling ends up, though I think this forum is not the place to discuss recycling!

I tend to agree with your objections to profiteering; it would be nice to see farmers freely offering their fields for wind farms, and energy companies making rather more modest profits. I would prefer to see community owned renewables, but I think accepting commercial wind farms is more pragmatic than naive, for someone who does take climate change, peak oil and the credit crunch seriously.

hi laura...

just to throw in a bit more info... Turbines can be of benefit as you say but the location issue remains... Why place them near Baumber in open unspolit countryside where the overal impact on the Wolds which is one of the major assests of Lincolnshire ?... The ANOB is protected by statute and this protection has already been disregarded by ELDC..

We have been peddled with the mantra, that we need to combat global warming by reducing carbon emmissions, but the evidence is still inconclusive.. Indeed there is now a debate that global warming is due to increased sun spot activity and or methane emitted from increased numbers of cattle & livestock as the growth & need to feed the extra billions of people living on this planet... So ok lets have a mix ... develop wind ,wave, solar & other new technologies.. more cleaner cars.cleaner gas & coal powered power stations..

You see what is really happening here is that a very powerful lobby group the BWEA, has latched on to this dogma and convinced the Government and the caring British public through brain washing and peddling their 'solution' to, a) global warming and b) the energy gap..... They are sucking up massive £100 billion subsidies of our money to ram through these Wind Farms, which they are desperate to dump on any available peice of land, with little or no regard for the local residents or the impact on any sensitive historical or valued landscape...

You have eloquently repeated exactly the line they want you believe in.... And even if you accept all of this, there is a case that turbines ,even tho they are NOT EFFICIENT they only work to at best 28% of their capacity.. and in the case of Baumber it could be as low as 11% can produce an amount of energy.. it is not cheap, not commercially viable... But to make us feel a bit better, why put them far away from the main areas of population so that to get the power to where it is needed, expensive pylons and infrastructure need to be built..? The 16 mega watts at Baumber is a pathetic amount of power.. but because of the subsidies will produce a profit of £450,000 per turbine per annum... It wont make any difference to global warming it wont close the energy gap..... yet it will change the character of this landscape for more than the 25 yrs (THE PLANNING PERMISSION WILL BE CONSTANTLY BE RENEWED.).. the turbines WIL be replaced with larger and larger up grades, it will industrialise this landscape..

Please Please for one minute donot believe and accept this you and anyone who doesnt understand what this is really all about will in time miss & loose a beautiful and tranquil heritage that will be sold yo a powerful loddy group for their own ends....

hi laura...

just to throw in a bit more info... Turbines can be of benefit as you say but the location issue remains... Why place them near Baumber in open unspolit countryside where the overal impact on the Wolds which is one of the major assests of Lincolnshire ?... The ANOB is protected by statute and this protection has already been disregarded by ELDC..

We have been peddled with the mantra, that we need to combat global warming by reducing carbon emmissions, but the evidence is still inconclusive.. Indeed there is now a debate that global warming is due to increased sun spot activity and or methane emitted from increased numbers of cattle & livestock as the growth & need to feed the extra billions of people living on this planet... So ok lets have a mix ... develop wind ,wave, solar & other new technologies.. more cleaner cars.cleaner gas & coal powered power stations..

You see what is really happening here is that a very powerful lobby group the BWEA, has latched on to this dogma and convinced the Government and the caring British public through brain washing and peddling their 'solution' to, a) global warming and b) the energy gap..... They are sucking up massive £100 billion subsidies of our money to ram through these Wind Farms, which they are desperate to dump on any available peice of land, with little or no regard for the local residents or the impact on any sensitive historical or valued landscape...

You have eloquently repeated exactly the line they want you believe in.... And even if you accept all of this, there is a case that turbines ,even tho they are NOT EFFICIENT they only work to at best 28% of their capacity.. and in the case of Baumber it could be as low as 11% can produce an amount of energy.. it is not cheap, not commercially viable... But to make us feel a bit better, why put them far away from the main areas of population so that to get the power to where it is needed, expensive pylons and infrastructure need to be built..? The 16 mega watts at Baumber is a pathetic amount of power.. but because of the subsidies will produce a profit of £450,000 per turbine per annum... It wont make any difference to global warming it wont close the energy gap..... yet it will change the character of this landscape for more than the 25 yrs (THE PLANNING PERMISSION WILL BE CONSTANTLY BE RENEWED.).. the turbines WIL be replaced with larger and larger up grades, it will industrialise this landscape..

Please Please for one minute donot believe and accept this you and anyone who doesnt understand what this is really all about will in time miss & loose a beautiful and tranquil heritage that will be sold yo a powerful loddy group for their own ends....

--- interested local(guest) 

Sorry the last line should read that this beautiful and tranquil heritage in this sweeping area of Lincolnshire on the Western Escarpment of the Lincolnshire Wolds, will be in effect handed over to a powerful lobby group.. The BRITISH WIND ENERGY ASSOCIATION in conjunction with ENERTRAG for their own ends...

John Ward bless his cotton socks is just the small guy they are using to facilitate this..

This is the con......

hi laura...

just to throw in a bit more info... Turbines can be of benefit as you say but the location issue remains... Why place them near Baumber in open unspolit countryside where the overal impact on the Wolds which is one of the major assests of Lincolnshire ?... The ANOB is protected by statute and this protection has already been disregarded by ELDC..

We have been peddled with the mantra, that we need to combat global warming by reducing carbon emmissions, but the evidence is still inconclusive.. Indeed there is now a debate that global warming is due to increased sun spot activity and or methane emitted from increased numbers of cattle & livestock as the growth & need to feed the extra billions of people living on this planet... So ok lets have a mix ... develop wind ,wave, solar & other new technologies.. more cleaner cars.cleaner gas & coal powered power stations..

You see what is really happening here is that a very powerful lobby group the BWEA, has latched on to this dogma and convinced the Government and the caring British public through brain washing and peddling their 'solution' to, a) global warming and b) the energy gap..... They are sucking up massive £100 billion subsidies of our money to ram through these Wind Farms, which they are desperate to dump on any available peice of land, with little or no regard for the local residents or the impact on any sensitive historical or valued landscape...

You have eloquently repeated exactly the line they want you believe in.... And even if you accept all of this, there is a case that turbines ,even tho they are NOT EFFICIENT they only work to at best 28% of their capacity.. and in the case of Baumber it could be as low as 11% can produce an amount of energy.. it is not cheap, not commercially viable... But to make us feel a bit better, why put them far away from the main areas of population so that to get the power to where it is needed, expensive pylons and infrastructure need to be built..? The 16 mega watts at Baumber is a pathetic amount of power.. but because of the subsidies will produce a profit of £450,000 per turbine per annum... It wont make any difference to global warming it wont close the energy gap..... yet it will change the character of this landscape for more than the 25 yrs (THE PLANNING PERMISSION WILL BE CONSTANTLY BE RENEWED.).. the turbines WIL be replaced with larger and larger up grades, it will industrialise this landscape..

Please Please for one minute donot believe and accept this you and anyone who doesnt understand what this is really all about will in time miss & loose a beautiful and tranquil heritage that will be sold yo a powerful loddy group for their own ends....

--- interested local(guest) 

Sorry the last line should read that this beautiful and tranquil heritage in this sweeping area of Lincolnshire on the Western Escarpment of the Lincolnshire Wolds, will be in effect handed over to a powerful lobby group.. The BRITISH WIND ENERGY ASSOCIATION in conjunction with ENERTRAG for their own ends...

John Ward bless his cotton socks is just the small guy they are using to facilitate this..

This is the con......

--- interested local(guest) 

Thanks for taking the time to respond in some detail. I share your concern that powerful lobby groups including energy companies are using greenwash as a means of acheiving their objectives (E-on also springs to mind). However, I am also concerned that you talk about global warming as a "mantra" and a "con" - there is overwhelming evidence that climate change is happening, and there is an urgency for us to act.

There are also the problems of energy security, peak oil and fuel poverty (remember fossil fuels can only get more expensive). I agree with you that wind energy must be a part of the energy mix (though the figures that you quote are on the very conservative end for wind output). I agree that global population growth is something we cannot ignore; reducing the proportion of animal protein in our diet is another way to reduce greenhouse gas emmissions including methane; more research is being done into CCS technology (though "clean coal" will not be available for decades and will be expensive).

I am finding it difficult to engage with this campaign because it appears to be seriously under-estimating global warming (I'm getting my information from climate scientists, including NASA scientist Jim Hansen, Tory advisor Zac Goldsmith, the IPCC, and others - NOT the government, BWEA or entrag!) I sympathise with people who don't like the look of wind turbines, even though personally I don't mind them, but there are bigger issues at stake here that need to be addressed.

Perhaps we could consider lobbying the government to alter its emphasis on energy policy - for instance, by rejecting the Kingsnorth proposals, shutting down runways, putting more money into subsidising micro-generation, hydro and tidal power generation, or other ideas. It seems to me reasonable to campaign against the proposed wind farm only if we can play our part in other ways. Look at http://www.icount.org.uk/ for ideas!

hi laura...

just to throw in a bit more info... Turbines can be of benefit as you say but the location issue remains... Why place them near Baumber in open unspolit countryside where the overal impact on the Wolds which is one of the major assests of Lincolnshire ?... The ANOB is protected by statute and this protection has already been disregarded by ELDC..

We have been peddled with the mantra, that we need to combat global warming by reducing carbon emmissions, but the evidence is still inconclusive.. Indeed there is now a debate that global warming is due to increased sun spot activity and or methane emitted from increased numbers of cattle & livestock as the growth & need to feed the extra billions of people living on this planet... So ok lets have a mix ... develop wind ,wave, solar & other new technologies.. more cleaner cars.cleaner gas & coal powered power stations..

You see what is really happening here is that a very powerful lobby group the BWEA, has latched on to this dogma and convinced the Government and the caring British public through brain washing and peddling their 'solution' to, a) global warming and b) the energy gap..... They are sucking up massive £100 billion subsidies of our money to ram through these Wind Farms, which they are desperate to dump on any available peice of land, with little or no regard for the local residents or the impact on any sensitive historical or valued landscape...

You have eloquently repeated exactly the line they want you believe in.... And even if you accept all of this, there is a case that turbines ,even tho they are NOT EFFICIENT they only work to at best 28% of their capacity.. and in the case of Baumber it could be as low as 11% can produce an amount of energy.. it is not cheap, not commercially viable... But to make us feel a bit better, why put them far away from the main areas of population so that to get the power to where it is needed, expensive pylons and infrastructure need to be built..? The 16 mega watts at Baumber is a pathetic amount of power.. but because of the subsidies will produce a profit of £450,000 per turbine per annum... It wont make any difference to global warming it wont close the energy gap..... yet it will change the character of this landscape for more than the 25 yrs (THE PLANNING PERMISSION WILL BE CONSTANTLY BE RENEWED.).. the turbines WIL be replaced with larger and larger up grades, it will industrialise this landscape..

Please Please for one minute donot believe and accept this you and anyone who doesnt understand what this is really all about will in time miss & loose a beautiful and tranquil heritage that will be sold yo a powerful loddy group for their own ends....

--- interested local(guest) 

Sorry the last line should read that this beautiful and tranquil heritage in this sweeping area of Lincolnshire on the Western Escarpment of the Lincolnshire Wolds, will be in effect handed over to a powerful lobby group.. The BRITISH WIND ENERGY ASSOCIATION in conjunction with ENERTRAG for their own ends...

John Ward bless his cotton socks is just the small guy they are using to facilitate this..

This is the con......

--- interested local(guest) 

Thanks for taking the time to respond in some detail. I share your concern that powerful lobby groups including energy companies are using greenwash as a means of acheiving their objectives (E-on also springs to mind). However, I am also concerned that you talk about global warming as a "mantra" and a "con" - there is overwhelming evidence that climate change is happening, and there is an urgency for us to act.

There are also the problems of energy security, peak oil and fuel poverty (remember fossil fuels can only get more expensive). I agree with you that wind energy must be a part of the energy mix (though the figures that you quote are on the very conservative end for wind output). I agree that global population growth is something we cannot ignore; reducing the proportion of animal protein in our diet is another way to reduce greenhouse gas emmissions including methane; more research is being done into CCS technology (though "clean coal" will not be available for decades and will be expensive).

I am finding it difficult to engage with this campaign because it appears to be seriously under-estimating global warming (I'm getting my information from climate scientists, including NASA scientist Jim Hansen, Tory advisor Zac Goldsmith, the IPCC, and others - NOT the government, BWEA or entrag!) I sympathise with people who don't like the look of wind turbines, even though personally I don't mind them, but there are bigger issues at stake here that need to be addressed.

Perhaps we could consider lobbying the government to alter its emphasis on energy policy - for instance, by rejecting the Kingsnorth proposals, shutting down runways, putting more money into subsidising micro-generation, hydro and tidal power generation, or other ideas. It seems to me reasonable to campaign against the proposed wind farm only if we can play our part in other ways. Look at http://www.icount.org.uk/ for ideas!

--- Laura (also local, incidentally)(guest) 

Nice input Laura(also local,incidentally) but they should still place turbines off shore.

hi Laura

You say that 'clean coal' will not be available for decades. But the proposed project at Onllwyn Dulais Valley, for a carbon capture, and Hydrogen conversion coal fired station, was put forward, on the understanding that it could be built in a few years. And provide 460 mw of power. On the matter of population growth, how do you answer the argument put forward by the Darmstadt Manifesto...'This means that because it makes such a small contribution to the statistics, wind energy is running a race which is already lost in an economic order oriented towards growth....At present total energy consumption in Germany is growing about seventy times! faster than the production potential of wind energy'.

BWAG Fan, you ask whether 16MW of power will supply the whole country? 16MW?....if there is 8 turbines, rated at 2MW, and they operate (typicaly) at around 26% (over the year) then they will be generating 4MW, not 16! The only time they can claim to be generating 16MW is when the wind speed is 30-40mph. At wind speeds below 8mph, or above 56mph they generate LESS than zero energy. Spalding gas turbine generator operates at 865 MW. Non renuwable power stations will still be needed, no matter how many wind turbines are built, to provide backup for the days when the wind is'nt blowing

Fen Beagle

Thanks for pointing me to the Darmstadt Manifesto; it makes interesting reading. It seems to me that there is significant disagreement over the (lack of?) efficiency of wind farms, and this is something that should be kept under close scrutinity and review.

It is also very helpful to point out how wind energy is completely dwarfed by the scale and urgency of global warming, and how population and increasing energy demands across the world are perhaps being ignored because somehow it feels like we're doing enough by having wind farms.

But that says to me that we need to be doing everything we can, not just one or two little things. If the rest of the world is to make the necessary changes to avert climate catastrophe, Britain has got to go to Copenhagen next year leading the way. We have to be taking positive action NOW as well as doing more research NOW. (have you seen http://www.nef.org.uk/ ?)

I keep trying to challenge the users of this forum (esp those who who say that wind power is not effective) to identify and do things that are really effective - quit flying, use a bus or bike instead of a car, put on a jumper and turn down the thermostat, buy less, waste less, shop locally, campaign against new power plants that aren't built with CCS (eg Kingsnorth), this list goes on and on, of large and small things each of us can do... no-one can do everything, but we can all do something...

What are you doing?

Laura, I agree with your views, but I have to point out that Global Warming is most likely, (certainly not entirely) not of human fault.

However, all you pro-turbine comments can be directed to the lack of non-renewable resources that the modern world will face soon.

Fen Beagle, you have to remember that the wind speed increases as you get higher up, so the wind speed up at the turbine is going to enough to run the turbines nearly 100% of the time.

Derek, I imagine the wind speed does increase with height, or else, why would they want to place Turbines on hills? However, your point that they operate, nearly 100% of the time, flies in the face of Consulting Engineer Jim Oswalds recent report for the journal 'Energy Policy' titled 'Will British weather provide reliable electricity' and so, I would ask people to read this report. I'm no expert myself. But I do make a point of checking the BBC windspeed observations every day, and I do look across at the Bicker Fen Rotors, and (thus far) The Rotors do not turn, when the wind speed reports suggest they should'nt be. Its early days yet however, so I will keep researching this, and If I see the rotors turning in low or negligable wind, then I will know why (thankyou!).....It does'nt seem significant though, can you direct me to a technical site?

Laura. I am in complete agreement with you about the importance of your concerns. These concerns are not exactly new, and becoming more pressing all the time. If this can be viewed as a 'war' its not a war we can afford to lose. I am not a great 'fan' (sorry) of wind Turbines myself, particularly on shore, not only because they are not 'battle winners' in themselves. But also because they are being positioned far too close to existing homes. Quit wrongly, and unfairly, in my view. As George Monbiot says, this is turning people away from Green issues, the very people, who, in any other circumstances, would be its champion. The wind farms are clearly Industrial in Nature, and are spoiling the rural environment, particularly in the numbers that are being built. Such CO2 as they are saving is being massively counteracted simply by the year on year, increase in Airtravel. Also, the fact that China alone builds two new coal fired power stations every week can't possibly be counteracted by our building of Wind turbines! They are only renewable, to the extent that they are backed up by non renawable power (currently) and if we can develop a better renewable back up for the wind turbines......then why do we need the wind turbines?! I do take your point that anything is better than nothing, although, I think, this must be balanced by sensible law. And so I think, that a 2 kilometer limit, to their proximity to existing homes is the very least that can, and should be done. And would go a long way to winning the hearts and minds campaign, which is currently slipping. I am also concerned about the amount of money, that is going to wind turbine developers, in stealth subsidy, that could (I feel) be better spent, on the whole energy problem.

Hi Fen Beagle

your reply to Laura's posting echo's the main tenent of BWAG's campaign. Thank you

Too many people, unfortuantly seem to be not bothering to really consider the issues. ?..

Perhaps West Ashby Councillors and others, should stop 'sitting on the fence' and actively engage with BWAG to become more informed so they can give a considered opinion !...Controversial I know, but hey, if it provokes a response,.. thats better than a deafly silence...

Melvin -

I found Fen Beagle's post very helpful too, and I am really glad this forum provides an opportunity to engage a bit more with the issues at stake.

I am also impressed that, on the BWAG manifesto and elsewhere, makes clear that BWAG supports renewable energy. But I still haven't understood what anyone BWAG is doing to support renewable energy. If there was a specific alternative promoted (that went a bit beyond "put them off shore" which does come across as mere nimby-ism), that would provide a useful focus.

Hi Laura

BWAG has clearly stated that the offshore turbines are in our opinion, the best option and hopefully from the new impact pictures we have been posting ,during the past 14 days the scale and magnitude of the turbines are cleally demonstrated.. Incidently when enertrag 1st submitted docs to ELDC, they cynically stated that they would be seen from local houses and farms... what a big joke that is.. another, dare I say it, misrepresentation to add to the plenty they scatter about...

We also have stated that there maybe appropriate sites on land... Brown fields.. Industrial Complexes and certainly

no nearer that 2 km from ANY residence ANY where...

That brings me to the Renewable Energy Foundation, who are providing a balanced view of this whole subject.. unlike the BWEA who are in my view, 'wolves in sheeps clothing', seeking to grab the lions share of subisdies for their commercial association members to feed on.. Their policy is: Any land throughout the UK, which is seen as a soft touch either through lax planners or apathetic residents as well, is up for grabs...

These are the bare facts of the dash for wind... I know, I was at the Kettering Seminar where this was clearly stated....

Oh dear Enertrag... what can the matter be, I hope you are begining to realise we are not a soft touch and we will oppose you all the way.. I suggest you pack away your intentions and mast and depart from here, before you and your investors waste any more money... I am posting this Laura because Enertrag follow this forum...

Fen Beagle -

do you know of The Transition Handbook by Rob Hopkins? It's well worth a read. (There's a queue for it at the library, but I think it's good value for money. I'd lend you my copy but I've already promised it to someone else!)

http://www.greenbooks.co.uk/store/product_info.php?products_id=273